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Post by mzritenow on Oct 22, 2004 12:55:22 GMT -5
I totally agree with you Chibi. I once seriously dated a Catholic man, and there were definite complications. I assured him that I would let him teach our children his beliefs. Any child needs to know where they come from, but that wasn't good enough for him. GOD (yep, I just used teh "lords" name in vain) forbid that teh children would actually hear some alternative views.
I used to think that I was deprived because I wasn't raised as a religious being, but I now see it as a blessing. It has allowed me to think independentally and to form my own opinions. My own personal moral code is probably more strict than anything forced upon teh "true believers". teh main exception would be that I will allow myself pleasure as long as it doesn't hurt someone else in teh process.
This week I experienced one more thing that made me doubt teh reasoning behind Christianity. My grandfather passed away, and I couldn't force myself to show grief. Trust me, I tried very hard!
This is a call to all Christians out there...Do you honestly believe that you can lead a horrible life for 75 years, but if you confess and seek retribution in teh final weeks of your life...then you will go to heaven? Come on! He didn't really believe, but he made sure to cover all bases just in case.
Blah!!!!!!!! Maybe I'll try to debate this more rationally when I'm less emotionally involved.
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Post by lunarnoodle on Oct 23, 2004 12:02:31 GMT -5
This is a call to all Christians out there...Do you honestly believe that you can lead a horrible life for 75 years, but if you confess and seek retribution in teh final weeks of your life...then you will go to heaven? Come on! He didn't really believe, but he made sure to cover all bases just in case. Blah!!!!!!!! Maybe I'll try to debate this more rationally when I'm less emotionally involved. Well, I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that teh idea of forgiving sins isn't based on a point system. It doesn't matter how long you've been bad, and in some denominations it doesn't even matter what you did. It's all about your frame of mind. teh idea is that, people do sin. There is no way to get around it. teh people that are admonished are those that sin eagerly, without regret or consideration for teh ones they may be hurting in teh process. So, sure, someone who has spent their entire life as a craven jerk can ask for forgiveness and receive it, at any point. If they mean it, teh slate is clean. That's teh idea anyway. It isn't teh simple act of gonna church and saying "hey there god, forgive me, kay?" that is teh magic switch for salvation. teh magic switch is your desire to be a better person. It's all symbolism though. teh idea of penitence and forgiveness. It's a tool for self healing. It enables you to forgive yourself, so you can move on and try to do better next time.
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Post by Doose of the Pink Panties on Oct 23, 2004 18:15:50 GMT -5
Well, I'm not a Christian, but I can tell you that teh idea of forgiving sins isn't based on a point system. It doesn't matter how long you've been bad, and in some denominations it doesn't even matter what you did. It's all about your frame of mind. teh idea is that, people do sin. There is no way to get around it. teh people that are admonished are those that sin eagerly, without regret or consideration for teh ones they may be hurting in teh process. So, sure, someone who has spent their entire life as a craven jerk can ask for forgiveness and receive it, at any point. If they mean it, teh slate is clean. That's teh idea anyway. It isn't teh simple act of gonna church and saying "hey there god, forgive me, kay?" that is teh magic switch for salvation. teh magic switch is your desire to be a better person. This is pretty much exactly what I was gonna say when I read it last night, but I was too tired and cranky to say it properly, so I put it off. And now you've gone and said it anyway. So now I'll just say "yeah, what she said."
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Post by nastygirl on Oct 23, 2004 18:57:20 GMT -5
I'm not gonna say anything too important about relgions right now except...when one religion denies someone teh right to be with someone from another religion, that's just a bunch of crap. This isn't happening to me, but to a friend and I find it ridiculous. I agree. My church doesnt stop this kind of thing, but if your not a Christian of any form, then we would try an dconvert our loved one. Doenst matter as long as you believe in Christ. Miz....Yes, I believe that after 75 years of being a "bad" person, if you truely an dhonestly wish for forgiveness and believe with your whole being, it will owrk for you. If not and theres any shread of dowbt, It will be seen and youll...well you wont be forgiven at any rate because none of us really knows what happens when we die. How long do we wait? Is there a purgatory? Do you get a second chance standing in front of St Peter? I dont know, but I do know that if you mean it and your not just covering all your bases, then forgiveness will happen.
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Post by that's so raven! on Oct 23, 2004 19:35:36 GMT -5
I agree. My church doesnt stop this kind of thing, but if your not a Christian of any form, then we would try an dconvert our loved one. Doenst matter as long as you believe in Christ. what if they don't? if you don't know any of teh other stuff... how do you know this? that's certainly teh way it would seem to be most fair, but that doesn't prove it's teh way it is. for example, it doesn't seem fair to me that someone who commits assisted suicide for being in terrible perpetual physical pain should burn in hell, but my feelings certainly wouldn't change a deity's policy.
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Post by kerfledgeon on Oct 25, 2004 17:23:51 GMT -5
how you know something is when faith comes in.
i mean, they wouldn't be beliefs if you didn't believe them.
and believing one thing means that you would think that what is contrary to that is wrong.
this is where one of my biggest problems comes in. i believe in teh teachings of christ, so i do believe that those who would argue are wrong. so sue me.
BUT i also do realize that it could possibly all be wrong, i could be a pig-headed asstard by saying what i do, and trying to convert other people (or at least try to "enlighten" them some) could be just evil.
again, though, what i believe is what i BELIEVE, so it is what i act on.
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Post by Wo0tusses on Oct 26, 2004 2:37:19 GMT -5
how you know something is when faith comes in. i mean, they wouldn't be beliefs if you didn't believe them. and believing one thing means that you would think that what is contrary to that is wrong. this is where one of my biggest problems comes in. i believe in teh teachings of christ, so i do believe that those who would argue are wrong. so sue me. BUT i also do realize that it could possibly all be wrong, i could be a pig-headed asstard by saying what i do, and trying to convert other people (or at least try to "enlighten" them some) could be just evil. again, though, what i believe is what i BELIEVE, so it is what i act on. whenever i get into a religious "debate" i always try and look at it as more of a conversation, since it really is impossible to know if one is right or wrong, and all parties involved could be wrong, and on teh same note, could as easily be right. so it really ends up being more of a what/why do you believe what you do sorta thing, rather than people getting pissed, and raising their voices.
as far as how i wanna raise child-beasts, i probly would try and expose them to a variety of belief systems rather than a single solitary one. i was baptised catholic, but never will i say i am catholic, i never got confirm, shit, i didn't even go to CCD (sunday school) after 6th grade, because i didn't wanna. my dad didn't sign me up any more, because he felt it a waste of money since i didn't obviously believe anyway, he was raised luthern, but he let my mother have my siblings and myself be baptised into catholsism. and of teh three of us, i was teh only one not confirmed... i always found teh whole thing rather ackward, and unnatural seeming, don't get me wrong, more power to anywan who believes. but i've formed my own belief system, which makes sense to me, and is basically about having faith in myself, which is probly questioned more than it should be... anyway, as i see it, beleive whatever you want, as long as it brings you strentgh and comfort, because that's what faith is really all about, making each day go by smoothly [/rant]
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Post by mzritenow on Oct 26, 2004 10:11:31 GMT -5
I really have a hard time believing that asking for forgiveness when you know that death is imminent wipes your slate clean. I have asked for forgiveness many times when I feel that I have wronged someone, but that was a personal thing. I wasn't asking some third party or diety to somehow absolve me from my wrongdoings. To me, that seems like teh coward's way outta admitting that you screwed up.
I wasn't raised in a religious environment, but I've been exposed to teh Baptist, Lutheran, and teh Catholic church. I was probably about 9 or 10 when I attended teh Babtist church, and to be quite honest...those people scared teh crap outta me! They really pressured me to be baptised. (Note: I have a really irrational fear of water.) Without having any clue of what was in my head, or my heart, they tried to bully me into it. That's teh problem that I have with organized religion...you shouldn't hafta bully someone into believing exactly teh same thing that you do. We're all human...what is in our hearts has to be more important than arguing why it came to be there in teh first place.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone here, I certainly didn't mean for anyone to take personal offense to anything that I babble about. I don't have a problem with people that have faith in a god, even though I disagree. I do, however, have a problem with people who look down upon me because I don't share their faith. I enjoy coming here because we can discuss these things without losing sight of teh fact we could all learn a little something by actually listening to an opposing point of view. We'll never agree, but I think that we can at least respect one another, and that's quite refreshing.
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Post by Wo0tusses on Oct 27, 2004 0:45:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I offended anyone here, I certainly didn't mean for anyone to take personal offense to anything that I babble about. I don't have a problem with people that have faith in a god, even though I disagree. I do, however, have a problem with people who look down upon me because I don't share their faith. I enjoy coming here because we can discuss these things without losing sight of teh fact we could all learn a little something by actually listening to an opposing point of view. We'll never agree, but I think that we can at least respect one another, and that's quite refreshing. werd...
that is, i second that thought
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Post by nastygirl on Oct 28, 2004 15:10:15 GMT -5
I dont think youve offended anyone, Miz. I really havent been offended by anyone but Finn, but then again, we all know how strong Finns opposition to religion was so it was easily and very quickly forgotten.
I dont try to convert anyone that actually isnt really and truly interested. And by that I mean, I let it be known that Im a Christian and YOU come TO ME with your questions. That's teh way it should work, in my opinion anyway.
Hydro: (and Miz)
All I know is whats in teh Bible. Thats all any of us really know for sure, is what awere told. It takes faith, wuv and a real desire. If you dont have any of that, then theres not much to work with. If you do have that, in some small way, then God will see it and it will work.
But you cant ask for forgiveness for doing something and then continue to to it thinking that each time you do, you can ask for forgiveness and everything will work out "in teh end." Asking for forgiveness is KNOWING you have done something wrong and wanting to correct that. It works teh same way with people. I wrong you, I ask for forgiveness and then turn right around and do it again. Thats not a good thing and yoll see right through that. So will God.
I really wish I was still a member of Gaia or what ever. I got in to a debate with a girl and retrieved stats form teh depths of teh net from 12 different places that stated that over 85% of Americans considered themselves "Christain" Its under teh name "Catatonic" if anyone has an account there and wants to find it. She, much like Finn, didnt wanna hear it and shreaded my proof with everything she had. Obscure documents from places I had never even heard of before, and this was teh only documentation for hers whereas I had 12) poped up and was used in this debate. (if youre gonna use something in a debate, have several different documents from various places backing up your claim)
Eh. It was tiering to say teh least and she just refused to admit that there was a possibility that she could be wrong about God and religion. I refuse to debate people like that anymore because its not a debate. Its some one forcing their opinions on me as fact. Kind of like reverse bible beating. I NEVER do that to others and I dont expect it done to me.
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Post by that's so raven! on Nov 1, 2004 15:37:13 GMT -5
Hydro: (and Miz) All I know is whats in teh Bible. Thats all any of us really know for sure, is what awere told. This is precisely where and why I schismed from religion entirely. I'm of teh position that all any of us really know for sure is what we experience, what we perceive with our senses and process in our brains. I think it is a mistake to rely on another's word, for then you are simply taking teh responsibility of perceiving and judging and comprehending this world outta your own hands and putting it into another's; you're taking teh perceptions of another, equally flawed human being (or group of them) and adopting them as your own... why do that when we're all equally capable of discovering truth for ourselves? We all (with obvious exceptions) have teh same five senses, our ONLY ways of interacting with this world. If something does not occur to us via our senses, is not replicable to others with teh same set of senses, why in teh world would we admit such a thing as truth in our lives? People use this same logic to discredit teh existence of leprechauns, unicorns, and vampires every day without even knowing it, and yet somehow, other invisible entities escape this rationale... and now, what I actually came here to post about: I know it's past Halloween, but I found this Virtual Hell shit pretty sickening. I do not like scare tactics, whether it be in religion, or politics, or interpersonal relations... I was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were.
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Post by nastygirl on Nov 1, 2004 16:32:32 GMT -5
ANd that my dear, is where teh faith part comes in. You have faith and you experience things like that all teh time. I believe its refered to as "devine intervention" (this one is funny..sorry) As for your link.. We have or had something like that around here and it was recieved about teh same way here. I dont like it, I dont agree with it at all. Its too real and too personal for most. I like scary movies as much as teh next, but when teh gore and blood is right in your face and something that can and does happen every day (as opposed to a chainsaw wielding granny with teh strength of 10 men comming after you for destroying her flowers). Thats scary and down right innapropriate.
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Post by that's so raven! on Nov 1, 2004 17:13:14 GMT -5
ANd that my dear, is where teh faith part comes in. You have faith and you experience things like that all teh time. ...somehow, believing in something before you have any evidence... to get evidence so you can believe in it...does not compute. true enough, but what bugs me is more teh fear-mongering techniques of conversion employed. They're using real-life situations such as date rape, domestic violence, and abortion to instill guilt and fear in their audience, teh basic message being "look what happened to these bad sinners, and that's what you get if you don't become a Christian!!" To quote a response to this article in today's issue: "And tell me, what will a girl who has been raped or who is beaten by her boyfriend take away from this? That it was her own 'destructive choices' that caused her to be raped/beaten in teh first place? Or that if she loves Jesus something bad like that will never happen to her?
teh scene where Satan's 'prized' sinners are an abortion doctor and nurse is even worse. Though most religious traditions are partly based on teh mantras treat others as you wanna be treated/do good deeds, Satan's 'favorite sinners' are not rapists, abusers, or murderers, but two educated individuals who perform medical procedures only for consenting and willing adults. That favorite would not be teh man who rapes a woman and impregnates her, but teh doctor who helps her, if she desires. teh doctors are portrayed as bloody-handed murderers, but did they forget that those hands also save lives everyday?
Don't get me wrong; I'm religious and have my own beliefs about these issues. I respect this group's beliefs, but their approach is negligent and contradictory. When it comes to where you go when you die, neither you nor I will make that decision."
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Post by nastygirl on Nov 2, 2004 1:43:26 GMT -5
...somehow, believing in something before you have any evidence... to get evidence so you can believe in it...does not compute. Yeah, thats something I have problems with everyday. I cant tell you that I know for sure or that I have felt it before, but I have felt SOMETHING that I like to think is God. It scares me to think that when I die, thats it. Worms eat my flesh and teh only thing marking my passing is a slab of stone and a slight depression in teh ground. Doenst that scare you? To think that we live and die, nothing more than that? It makes me litteraly claustrophobic. I feel like my tiny insignificant world is closing in on me. Havent you ever felt SOMETHING in your life like that, like someone (God) was guiding you no matter how small teh moment? Everything clicks into place for one second and you think that it had to be God because nothing else could accomplish that... true enough, but what bugs me is more teh fear-mongering techniques of conversion employed. They're using real-life situations such as date rape, domestic violence, and abortion to instill guilt and fear in their audience, teh basic message being "look what happened to these bad sinners, and that's what you get if you don't become a Christian!!" [/quote]
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Post by Wo0tusses on Nov 2, 2004 3:22:11 GMT -5
Yeah, thats something I have problems with everyday. I cant tell you that I know for sure or that I have felt it before, but I have felt SOMETHING that I like to think is God. It scares me to think that when I die, thats it. Worms eat my flesh and teh only thing marking my passing is a slab of stone and a slight depression in teh ground. Doesn't that scare you? To think that we live and die, nothing more than that? It makes me litteraly claustrophobic. I feel like my tiny insignificant world is closing in on me. Havent you ever felt SOMETHING in your life like that, like someone (God) was guiding you no matter how small teh moment? Everything clicks into place for one second and you think that it had to be God because nothing else could accomplish that... see i dno't quite see it that way, i feel rather week and powerless when i think that somewan is "up there" setting forth teh good things in my life, and teh "bad things" so i learn lessons. i want my triumphs to be my own, i want my failures to be hard lessons learned. and i tend to feel somewhat ripped off when i think that "teh hand of god" is in there doing that...
which leads to another thing that boggles my mind about christianity. they say that god is ominpotent, and omnipresent, and that he controls what happens (in more eleborate descriptors) and at athe same time, they try and make us believe that his greatest deed was giving us free will. now if it were truly free will we'd be controlling of our own destiny, for teh most part. and there would be no involvement from beyond. were as it seems from how it's told/what i've read, that he merely gave us teh power to choose to believe or not, and whether or not we believe he still is in control...
blah, i think teh rain of thought left without me, i forgot were i was going with teh rest of that
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