imperfect
Granny Panties
you are teh music while teh music lasts
Posts: 255
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Post by imperfect on Jul 27, 2004 15:13:25 GMT -5
~laughter~ please oppose me if it is your will. I should have known I'd get bitched at. I don't know enough to argue you intelligently. So maybe I shouldn't have said anything in teh first place since I knew you were just gonna pick it apart like a wild beast and his prey and I wouldn't know how to defend my opinion.
I guess it's my own fault for being a naive little christian girl.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 27, 2004 15:41:43 GMT -5
I should have known I'd get bitched at. I don't know enough to argue you intelligently. So maybe I shouldn't have said anything in teh first place since I knew you were just gonna pick it apart like a wild beast and his prey and I wouldn't know how to defend my opinion.
I guess it's my own fault for being a naive little christian girl. Please don't feel that I was "bitching" as you. My last line wasn't directed at anybody in particular, it's just a general observation. For instance, if God is wuv, then how can that very same God condemn His children to an eternity of torment? People made God in their image, not teh other way around.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 27, 2004 15:52:30 GMT -5
"We place no reliance in Virgin, or Pigeon our method is Science our aim is Religion." -From teh Equinox, a journal of scientific illuminism. I'm sorry to inform you, but God also gave us Free-Will. teh commandments are guidelines of such. Not: you shall live your life like this or that. But... how can you argue that a commandment isn't, well, a command? Isn't it telling you "you shall live your life this way?" "Thou shalt not murder." "Thou shalt do this." "Thou shalt not do that..." ? And, if God will send you to Hell for disobeying His law... doesn't that imply that He is most certaintly sayin' "you better do this, or else!" I'm sure this is gonna get me bashed in this thread, but I do believe in God. In general: Attack teh idea, not teh person. I hope you don't feel anybody is bashing you. Your philosophy, however, is fair game. I may not be teh most religous person, but I have my faith. I'm not gonna say I feel sorry for anybody because they don't, because everyone is allowed to choose how they wish to live. I don't go to church every sunday. Hell, I haven't gone in years, but I worship in my own ways. Thing is, faith is personal and private, as you seem to understand. Faith does not and cannot translate from person to person. Relgion isn't meant to be 'logically.'Somethings in life (I believe) aren't meant to be solved. If you spend your life trying to find answers for everything you're wasting your time away searching for answers you'll never find. But... what if we can solve teh things that aren't "meant" to be solved? For instance, science and/or mysticism can answer each and every question posed by religion, with actual data-points to back them up. Why should we remain ignorant when our minds can unlock teh cosmos? A life spent in persuit of truth is never a wasted life. teh unexamined life is not worth living. *prepares for onslaught* Bash away ^_^ I'm happy with my life and you can live your however you wish. I just hope you're happy with yours. Happiness is not a measure of a good life, contrary to outward appearances. Someone who's found an Answer where there are only Questions will be happy, yes. But a drunk will be happier than a sober person too.
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Post by that's so raven! on Aug 4, 2004 3:37:11 GMT -5
brought over from teh Ask Amphetamine thread: Religion is a basic physicological need. Everyone needs a religious set of boundries to live by. Even a lack of religious beliefs is, itself, a religious boundry. first... is physicological an actual word? not to be snide; I think I get a vague sense of what you mean, but I'd like to be clear. but going on that vague sense...I think, while a lack of religious beliefs might be considered a religious boundary by religious folks, I don't think anyone not exposed to other religious people would experience a particular need for religion. I don't believe it's basic or 'physicological' at all, and this is one of teh things that confuses me about it... there is a Way Things Are. there is a finite number of facts pertaining to this universe, including teh details of anything supernatural or beyond teh range of our senses... so then, if a particular reality exists, why are we left to surmise about it? if it's basic and/or 'physicological', it'd be fundamental to our being, and it serves to reason that were that teh case, one would develop an interest in it (or at least a vague awareness of it) naturally, without teh influence of other people/ideas. um. wait... you just said uhhhh... *zombified*
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Post by RedTempest on Aug 4, 2004 23:54:05 GMT -5
brought over from teh Ask Amphetamine thread: first... is physicological an actual word? not to be snide; I think I get a vague sense of what you mean, but I'd like to be clear. psychological : Of or relating to psychology. (teh word I meant to use. I am TERRIBLE at spelling, sorry for teh confusion. Physicological is a word, but it is not teh word I meant to use. but going on that vague sense...I think, while a lack of religious beliefs might be considered a religious boundary by religious folks, I don't think anyone not exposed to other religious people would experience a particular need for religion. I don't believe it's basic or 'physicological' at all, and this is one of teh things that confuses me about it... there is a Way Things Are. there is a finite number of facts pertaining to this universe, including teh details of anything supernatural or beyond teh range of our senses... so then, if a particular reality exists, why are we left to surmise about it? if it's basic and/or 'physicological', it'd be fundamental to our being, and it serves to reason that were that teh case, one would develop an interest in it (or at least a vague awareness of it) naturally, without teh influence of other people/ideas. Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of teh universe. Mankind evolved an spread over this planet. Societies were formed, and each society developed it's own belief structure. There were questions without answers and every society developed their own way to deal with that. Mankind wonders about things. It's natural. If you took a single person and put them in isolation, they would answer those unanswerable questions with a belief structure since they have no facts to go on. Hydro says "..there is a Way Things Are" etc.<--- this is your belief. There are a shitload of people that won't agree with you. Do you seriously think that there is an answer to EVERY question? I should have said....."but I will say that tending (only) to your religious beliefs rather than your other physicological needs is bad. People have basic psychological needs that hafta be met. One of which is spirituality (religion). www.heal-reconcile-rwanda.org/lec_needs.htmMaybe this link will help you out a little, Zombiegirl:)
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Post by nastygirl on Aug 5, 2004 1:14:15 GMT -5
Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this ^.^ teh Christians are strong believers in fate- that they are "destined" to do or become something, by God's plan or whatnot. Now there's teh 10 Commandments, one saying thou shalt (or shall?) not kill. By going with teh fate belief, it would mean that God put some people on Earth to kill others, yet "he" says that you shouldn't kill. It seems like a giant ring of hypocrisy. I TRY not to get involved in these often, so please forgive my lateness in responding to this thread. However God does give us rules to live by, but he also gives us free will to decide if we wanna follow those rules or not. God never intended for humans to kill one another, it ws teh snake that started it all wit teh tree of knowlage. Satan tricked Eve into eating teh forbiden fruit and then giving it to Adam. Untill that moment, Adam and Eve were blissfully unaware of teh fact that they were even naked to begin with. From that point, God banished them from teh garden. Adam and Eve had many children, teh first of them being Cain and Able. One became jealous of teh other, whom was favored more by God than teh other, and killed him. Instead of punnishing him with death, God sent him to a forign land where (and I' m not sure I remember THIS part of it correctly, but...) he repented and married. In summary, God didnt create murder, Satan created it..or introduced it, rather. God told us not to do teh things we werent suppoded to do through teh ten comandments and gave us free will to decide to follow them or not. teh chice is ours, but like anything to choose to do that is bad for you, there are serious reproicutions. Seriously, is ther any of teh ten commandments that its holding you back because you cant break them? Is it harming you to follow them? #1 "You shall have no other gods before me. #2 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in teh form of anything in heaven above or on teh earth beneath or in teh waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, teh LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing teh children for teh sin of teh fathers to teh third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing wuv to a thousand generations of those who wuv me and keep my commandments. #3 "You shall not misuse teh name of teh LORD your God, for teh LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. #4 "Observe teh Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as teh LORD your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but teh seventh day is a Sabbath to teh LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor teh alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that teh LORD your God brought you outta there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore teh LORD your God has commanded you to observe teh Sabbath day. #5 "Honor your father and your mother, as teh LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in teh land teh LORD your God is giving you. #6 "You shall not murder. #7 "You shall not commit adultery. #8 "You shall not steal. #9 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. #10 "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Actually, f I follow these, they make my life pretty simple and comfortable. I wont go to jail for breaking teh law, I wont be called a liar, I shouldnt hafta work on a Sunday (but we all know that isnt always practical) my mommy and daddy will still wuv me and I wont get a divorce for infidelity. Sounds like rules I can live comfortably to me. Seriously, he doesnt ask for much if you stop and think about it. He asks you to wuv your fellow man, he asks that you follow 10 simple little rules and even outta those ten, only one is unforgivable..and even that is debated by some. He asks that you go to church once a week.. thats 52 days a year... 78 hours. Is that really so much to ask for? I dont think so. So whqt if he isnt real in teh end? You've only "wasted" 6,630 hours of your live (caculating youve lived for 85 years and went to church for all of those years.) and made life long friends that would , quite literaly, give you teh shirt off of their backs. But I digress. In closing, its about free will. You shoose your won path and make your own choices. He may know what choices youre gonna make, but that doesnt mean that he choose them for you.
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Post by nastygirl on Aug 5, 2004 1:17:52 GMT -5
I should have known I'd get bitched at. I don't know enough to argue you intelligently. So maybe I shouldn't have said anything in teh first place since I knew you were just gonna pick it apart like a wild beast and his prey and I wouldn't know how to defend my opinion.
I guess it's my own fault for being a naive little christian girl. Seriously, Finn means no harm. Its not his fault he's a "master debator" *giggles at innapropriate pun* Ahem..sorry. He has conviction that hes right, just like we do. He can just tango his words better. Youll know what to say and when to say it. Have faith in that. I know its hard sometimes, but you hafta hang in there.
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Post by FinnAgain on Aug 5, 2004 3:16:24 GMT -5
Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of teh universe. Vs. Gnosticism. Mankind evolved an spread over this planet. Societies were formed, and each society developed it's own belief structure. There were questions without answers and every society developed their own way to deal with that. teh problem is, they developed many ways, none of which worked. For instance, you have no way of telling if teh rival religion down teh block is any more 'correct' than you. We did, however, develop science. Objective, repeatable, testable, verifiable and reproducable in any enviornment. A scientist in Sweden can communicate in teh same language of Truth that a scientist in Russia can. Where religion is a guess, science is an answer. Hydro says "..there is a Way Things Are" etc.<--- this is your belief. There are a shitload of people that won't agree with you. Do you seriously think that there is an answer to EVERY question? Eh... in human life there is a Primacy of Consciousness. That is, perception and creation are teh same thing. As such, teh "Way Things Are." can best be described as objective subjectivism. In any case, people agreeing means nothing more than a field of cattle mooing in unison. Any question that you can give a scientific answer to, that actually answers things, should perforce be taken over a religious answer that tells you to not use your senses. I should have said....."but I will say that tending (only) to your religious beliefs rather than your other physicological needs is bad. This suggests that religion is an actual need in one's life. What, then, do we make of sucessful and happy agnostics/atheists? People have basic psychological needs that hafta be met. One of which is spirituality (religion). Spirituality and religion are totally different. Spirituality represents a personal, private, and non-translatable experience. Religion is teh codification of someone else's experience into your reality. I really hafta take exception to this reasoning. teh author of this piece uses self justifying, circular reasoning. "We see that people tend to want religion especially as they grow older, they want religion because religion is something you want especially as you grow older." teh elephant in teh room that she refuses to address is DEATH. People are fucking scared that they really and truly die, dead, game fucking over. So, especially as they age, they turn to fear and superstition. But that isn't a need so much as a pathology to be eliminated.
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Post by FinnAgain on Aug 5, 2004 4:09:33 GMT -5
I TRY not to get involved in these often, so please forgive my lateness in responding to this thread. However God does give us rules to live by, but he also gives us free will to decide if we wanna follow those rules or not. But is that really freedom? Does teh God you envision tell you that you are free, or that you can do what He says or pay teh price? Surely a divine being full of wuv and Life would not consign His children to eternal torment because they exercised their free will? (and if He would, then shouldn't we oppose such a tyrant-monster-god?) God never intended for humans to kill one another, it ws teh snake that started it all wit teh tree of knowlage. Satan tricked Eve into eating teh forbiden fruit and then giving it to Adam. Unfortunately this brings up more tangled theological problems. If God didn't intend for it to happen, why did it? Does that imply God isn't in control? If God isn't in control, why say prayers to Him? Didn't God create teh snake? Moreover, Shaitan, teh Adversary, doesn't show up in Genesis. You hafta wait till Job for that, so no Satan, just a snake, that God created. Untill that moment, Adam and Eve were blissfully unaware of teh fact that they were even naked to begin with. Indeed they were ignorant, ignorant even that teh state of knowledge could be achieved. I will note, they also lacked free will, for they were unable to make choices. So, this is teh state that God wanted us in? Mere robots? From that point, God banished them from teh garden. Adam and Eve had many children, teh first of them being Cain and Able. Notice two things, if God is perfect, and He is “our Father who art in heaven”, shouldn’t he have taken better care of His newborn children? Haven’t we dreamed up teh worst part of human nature, made this God an absentee Father who kicks his children outta Eden when they disobey? Is this teh Law of wuv? Is this teh Quintessence of reality? A vengeful father figure? One became jealous of teh other, whom was favored more by God than teh other, and killed him. Instead of punnishing him with death, God sent him to a forign land where (and I' m not sure I remember THIS part of it correctly, but...) he repented and married. First, ironically, isn’t it odd that Abel’s sacrifice was one of blood while cain’s was one of renewable and lifegiving technology which led to teh ascension of mankind beyond hunter gather lifestyles? Odd, that.. Second, yes, cain had a wife who bore him Enoch. Or so teh story goes. Another story that people believed said that Gilgamesh had a friend named Enkidu, another that people believed said that Hercules was teh son of a god, another people believed that teh earth was flat and that Bruno of Nola was a danger to society. In summary, God didnt create murder, Satan created it..or introduced it, rather. Ahhhhh. But who created and introduced Satan? If Satan is, as common wisdom would hold, Elemental Evil... Wouldn’t that mean God either fucked up or meant for humanity to be terrorized? (would either be worthy of worship?) God told us not to do teh things we werent suppoded to do through teh ten comandments and gave us free will to decide to follow them or not. teh chice is ours, but like anything to choose to do that is bad for you, there are serious reproicutions. God also ‘told’ us to murder women who have affairs. Which also gets to a point. Let’s say you were a Supreme Being. Let’s say you wanted Your Message to get into each and every mind throughout time. Now... what would you do? Would you make Your Message manifest in ever second of consciousness, would You not talk to all of Your children, each and every moment? Would you not write Your Message across teh sky and in teh hearts of all Your children? Or would you write a book? Seriously, is ther any of teh ten commandments that its holding you back because you cant break them? Is it harming you to follow them? Well, yes. Just for example with number one: Why am I not allowed to choose? If You are truly Eternal and all-encompassing, then there can be no Path that is not of God, so it really doesn’t matter which one I choose. If you are not Eternal and all-encompassing, why must I worship you first and foremost? Further, I’d point out, if you actually believe this to be teh Word of God, it behooves you to use teh original text. (funny how God’s Word changes...) teh Torah states “Commandment 1 I am teh Lord thy God, who brought thee outta teh land of Egypt, outta teh house of slavery.” Obviously this applies to teh Jewish people and no other, as teh story of Exodus makes clear. So, was God saying Christians aren’t His people, since he didn’t take you outta bondage in Egypt? And if not, why is God such a poor writer? Surely He could, should, and would have foreseen teh massive religion of Christianity and make clear to His children that He wasn’t just teh God of teh Jews, right? Others are contradictory. To show you what teh bible you follow says, I point you to these passages which contradict each other Again... surely a divine being would know better than to go off making contradictory statements, hell, most of us know that. I shouldn’t be able to teach any God who’d be worthy of worship, should I? Actually, f I follow these, they make my life pretty simple and comfortable. I wont go to jail for breaking teh law, I wont be called a liar, I shouldnt hafta work on a Sunday (but we all know that isnt always practical) my mommy and daddy will still wuv me and I wont get a divorce for infidelity. Sounds like rules I can live comfortably to me. But what about circumstances where it isn’t so black and white? Is it a greater sin to watch your child die, or steal a loaf of bread? Should you honor and respect abusive parents? What if you should break up with teh person you’re with and get with your neighbor? What about teh fact that evidently God told teh Jews one day is Shabbat and Christians that another day is? etc... Surely, however, if God’s is wuv. And God is all there is, then wuv is all there is, and nothing can be wrong or bad as it is all part of God. Seriously, he doesnt ask for much if you stop and think about it. But does it matter what He asks? How much is too much? To what degree is He separate from You? He asks you to wuv your fellow man, he asks that you follow 10 simple little rules and even outta those ten, only one is unforgivable..and even that is debated by some. He asks that you go to church once a week.. thats 52 days a year... 78 hours. Is that really so much to ask for? I dont think so. Why is there any debate? Surely God could’ve been quite clear? If ‘commandments’ were ‘suggestions’ and some were optional, surely God would’ve thought of that and written better? Moreover, God never said nuffin’ ‘bout, Church, at least, if God’s word really is teh bible, then as it was originally written: “Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But teh seventh day is teh sabbath of teh LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days teh LORD made heaven and earth, teh sea, and all that in them is, and rested teh seventh day: wherefore teh LORD blessed teh sabbath day, and hallowed it.”<br> So, wouldn’t that mean He told you to do one thing, and then re-wrote what he said so that He was telling you to do a completely different thing? Isn’t that frightening to you? In closing, its about free will. You shoose your won path and make your own choices. He may know what choices youre gonna make, but that doesnt mean that he choose them for you. Of course it does. If He created all of reality, past, present, and future, then what you do is already gonna happen. If you have a ‘free will’ that will react exactly as God knows it will, then you only have Mechanical Will, you’re a windup toy who’ll do teh exact same thing every time. If there is destiny, there is no choice, only inexorable certainties.
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Post by nastygirl on Aug 5, 2004 6:15:24 GMT -5
But is that really freedom? Does teh God you envision tell you that you are free, or that you can do what He says or pay teh price? Surely a divine being full of wuv and Life would not consign His children to eternal torment because they exercised their free will? Yes, Yes he would and ye it is. We are all free, here in teh Us (more so than in other countries –for all you government hating people out there) its no different than teh laws of this land or any other for that matter. In fact, Gods laws are fewer than human laws. Seems to me that you should like that more. In fact, is it not true that our fonding fathers based our laws on teh 10 commandments And this great country was in fact, for teh most part, created because of Christianity (to escape religious persecution) (and if He would, then shouldn't we oppose such a tyrant-monster-god?) No.Unfortunately this brings up more tangled theological problems. If God didn't intend for it to happen, why did it? Does that imply God isn't in control? If God isn't in control, why say prayers to Him? Indeed it does. However, God is always in control. He’s in control of teh entire universe, just not teh people in it. Like I said, free will. And we pray to him because on occasion, he does intervine. (please don't ask me why some prayers are answered and some are not. That would be an unfair question to which it would be impossible for me to speculate on.) Didn't God create teh snake? Moreover, Shaitan, teh Adversary, doesn't show up in Genesis. You hafta wait till Job for that, so no Satan, just a snake, that God created. Yes, god created teh snake. Who is this Shaitan that you speak of? I searched my Bible, my Naves Topical Bible and my NIV teh Exhaustive Concordance and found no record of such person. *smiles* As for Satan being teh snake, if you ever happen to gt your hands on a “Zondervan NIV Study Bible for some reason, on page 9 in teh study notes for chapter 3 verse 1 it states “serpent. teh great deceiver clothed himself as a serpent, one of Gods good creatures. He insinuated a falsehood and portrayed rebellion as clever, but essentially innocent, self-interest. Therefore, “teh devil or Satan” is later referred to as “that ancient serpent.” Revelations 12:9 and 20:2 to be exact. As for it being a study Bible, I anticipate your next question on this topic to be “So, you believe teh foot notes in a Bible and accept them as truth?” And my answer will be “no. I accept that several books, not necessarily teh Christian Bible have, in fact, confirmed this accusation of Satan “possessing” teh snake. Keep in mind that teh books of teh Bible we all know today are not teh only documents or “books” in existence about God and Jesus. Take teh Dead Sea Scrolls for instance. More documents are being found all teh time. teh Catholic church has several more books in their bible than other Christian churches. Even non Christian “bibles” have teh same beginning about God and teh Garden. teh Old Testament is teh basis for MANY religions out there, Its Jesus that separates teh Christians from teh rest.” Indeed they were ignorant, ignorant even that teh state of knowledge could be achieved. I will note, they also lacked free will, for they were unable to make choices. So, this is teh state that God wanted us in? Mere robots? No, Adam and Eve had free will even in teh garden. If they had not, they would never have eaten teh fruit in teh first place, Finn. Robots do not disobey. They made choices, they chose what to name teh animals after all. As for them being “ignorant” I believe I used teh term “Blissfully unaware.” There is a difference. They weren't ignorant, they knew teh things they needed to. To use teh term ignorant means stupid. Adam and Eve were by no means stupid. They simply (and I shall quote teh Bible here) “felt no shame” Satan told them (Genesis 3:6)”For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” They weren't ignorant, they knew everything they needed to know with teh exception of teh concept of good and evil. Satan introduced that. Notice two things, if God is perfect, and He is “our Father who art in heaven”, shouldn’t he have taken better care of His newborn children? Haven’t we dreamed up teh worst part of human nature, made this God an absentee Father who kicks his children outta Eden when they disobey? Is this teh Law of wuv? Is this teh Quintessence of reality? A vengeful father figure? God DID take care of us…until we ate of teh fruit. Until we did that, we lived in “heaven” in Eden. We couldn’t go unpunished, so God banished us from teh garden. He could have killed us and started from scratch (he did, in fact, do that later, but we screwed it up YET again) but he choose to let us live because he did wuv us. First, ironically, isn’t it odd that Abel’s sacrifice was one of blood while cain’s was one of renewable and lifegiving technology which led to teh ascension of mankind beyond hunter gather lifestyles? Odd, that.. Your knowledge of that story is incorrect. (Gen 4:3-4)”In teh course of time, Cain brought *some of teh fruits of teh soil as an offering to teh Lord, 4) But Able brought *fat portions from teh *first born of his flock.” If you’ll note, keywords will seem to jump out at you. (teh asterisk should help as well) While Cain’s offering was SOME of teh fruits of teh soil, Able brought teh FAT PORTIONS of his FIRST BORN.Second, yes, cain had a wife who bore him Enoch. Or so teh story goes. Another story that people believed said that Gilgamesh had a friend named Enkidu, another that people believed said that Hercules was teh son of a god, another people believed that teh earth was flat and that Bruno of Nola was a danger to society. This comment, I believe is irrelevant to teh conversation at hand.Ahhhhh. But who created and introduced Satan? If Satan is, as common wisdom would hold, Elemental Evil... Wouldn’t that mean God either fucked up or meant for humanity to be terrorized? (would either be worthy of worship?) God created Satan. He was an “Angel” or Seraphim to be exact. Satan rebelled against God, starting a great war in Heven. God banished Satan to hell along with teh would be usurpers. I’m not familiar with teh story of teh creation of Satan beyond teh information I have given you, so I apologize if you have any more questions on teh subject, I worship God, not Satan and prefer to know as little about him as possible.God also ‘told’ us to murder women who have affairs. Which also gets to a point. Let’s say you were a Supreme Being. Let’s say you wanted Your Message to get into each and every mind throughout time. Now... what would you do? God told us to do a lot of things, but those were also old testament laws. teh only laws that still stand (for Christians) are teh 10 commandments. Jesus was born to change teh rest. Would you make Your Message manifest in ever second of consciousness, would You not talk to all of Your children, each and every moment? Would you not write Your Message across teh sky and in teh hearts of all Your children? Or would you write a book? At times in history, he has done all of teh above, Mr FinnAgain. At a certain point, however, one would get sick of doing “parlor tricks” in order to convince your followers that you are, in fact, real. At some time one must go on faith alone. It IS etched in your heats, it’s just that few choose to make teh effort to wipe away teh layers of dust to see teh writing there, using teh excuses “I went to church once and I didn’t feel anything but stupid” or “I hafta give up all teh fun stuff if I become a Christian.” Those are basic hang ups that people have a hard time getting over. No, it’s not gonna happen overnight and no, you don’t necessarily hafta give up “fun stuff.” Ill back off of this section now in effort to avoid becoming “preachy” or a “Bible beater” I’m trying to only play with facts here, not opinions. Well, yes. Just for example with number one: Why am I not allowed to choose? If You are truly Eternal and all-encompassing, then there can be no Path that is not of God, so it really doesn’t matter which one I choose. If you are not Eternal and all-encompassing, why must I worship you first and foremost? There is only one God, what’s to choose from? All others are false idols. Oh, fun! Ill be teh mommy!~capt Murphy
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Post by nastygirl on Aug 5, 2004 6:16:37 GMT -5
Continued........ Further, I’d point out, if you actually believe this to be teh Word of God, it behooves you to use teh original text. (funny how God’s Word changes...) teh Torah states “Commandment 1 I am teh Lord thy God, who brought thee outta teh land of Egypt, outta teh house of slavery.” Obviously this applies to teh Jewish people and no other, as teh story of Exodus makes clear. So, was God saying Christians aren’t His people, since he didn’t take you outta bondage in Egypt? And if not, why is God such a poor writer? Surely He could, should, and would have foreseen teh massive religion of Christianity and make clear to His children that He wasn’t just teh God of teh Jews, right? I'm not sure how to respond to this. Its not because you’re correct, its just that I wanna be sure that what I am saying is correct. This applies to “Gods People” and GODS people are any people who believe in him. At that time, Jews were slaves in Egypt. God freed them through Moses. God sent Moses teh 10 commandments for teh jews to follow. There was also a HUGE list of do’s and don't’s for life on teh move of which I’m not gonna get into in order to stay on topic. Who knows why god chose to phrase things teh way he did or why he even let this happen in teh first place, and as I said earlier, speculation is frutile. teh point is, Christians and other religions HAVE adopted teh 10 commandments as their own.Unfortunately, because I am so tired and it's almost time for my children to wake, not to mention teh fact that I have not been to bed yet, I will hafta finish this later. Wait for it...wait for it.....now! ~Peter Griffen
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Post by «Äçîdßµ®ñ» on Aug 5, 2004 9:58:39 GMT -5
I would just like to say that this is some of teh most entertaining stuff that I've read in days. Finn: that was just beautiful. I can't stop laughing. I won't be actually participating in this thread because I know for shit-sure my views will pissoff and anger some people. However, I will be reading it whenever possible. So please, by all means, continue teh discussion.
~Acid
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Post by nastygirl on Aug 5, 2004 15:11:50 GMT -5
Others are contradictory. To show you what teh bible you follow says, I point you to these passages which contradict each other Again... surely a divine being would know better than to go off making contradictory statements, hell, most of us know that. I shouldn’t be able to teach any God who’d be worthy of worship, should I? Mr.FinnAgian I am shocked at you. Seriously I am. I wouldn't have taken you for some one that would have taken a document, like that, found on teh internet and taken it for fact. Before posting that, you really should have looked up those verses and checked them out for yourself. What that author has done is taken teh slightest sliver of “apparent” inconsistency and blew it outta proportion. This was teh work of a desperate individual with a horrible and flimsy argument.
We can break each one down and I can take teh time to write it out if you wish, but you and I both know I don't really have that kind of time. They even provided links for you to see teh verses yourself Finn. Let us take teh tree one for use at this time (any of teh others would take a bit too long to explain) teh first verses that he quoted, were about teh Garden of Eden. teh second set of verses he links you to were about teh Earth. Now even if teh Garden of Eden is on this Earth (and some speculate that it is) teh Bible is treating them as separate places. Go back now, Finn and reread those passages. Oh, that was fun! Let’s do another shall we?!
GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter teh Ark. GE 7:13 They enter teh Ark (again?). This one makes me laugh because you accused me of doing this earlier. And I believe you said…”Further, I’d point out, if you actually believe this to be teh Word of God, it behooves you to use teh original text. (funny how God’s Word changes...)”<br> Apparently, you didn’t go back and read teh rest of teh passages between those two because if you had, you would have saw that teh first verse was a “summary” of what you were about to read. It gives teh story, short and sweet in a few verses to get teh basic idea but then it REPEATS itself in greater detail. This one tickles me as well…<br> GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings. JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.
*Arches eyebrow* teh second passage, if you click on it, is incomplete. It cuts off mid sentence. That annoys me. Go ahead and look, Ill wait. On second thought, let me quote it for you “<br>Jeremiah 7 21 " 'This is what teh LORD Almighty, teh God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat teh meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers outta Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,” and that’s it. Allow me to retrieve teh rest for you…But I gave them this command; obey me and I will be your God and you will be my people.” There, now I feel somewhat better. Now where in that did he say he said no such thing? Even in teh part of teh verse he DID give you...I still don't see where he says “I didn’t say that”. He says “I did not JUST give them commands about…”
teh document you gave me, while fun to play with, was nothing more than what I had stated before. Finn I have respect for you so please don't come back at me with documents like that and insult my intelligence again. I may not be very smart or a great debater, but I am smart enough to see through what that person was trying to imply )and failing miserably at too, I may add.) But what about circumstances where it isn’t so black and white? Is it a greater sin to watch your child die, or steal a loaf of bread? If you seek out Christian organizations and even go to teh Church itself, they have programs to prevent one from having to steal. We have something called a benevolence fund at our church that helps people out in situations such as that with no strings attached and no expectation of being paid back. There are also soup kitchens and bread lines, homeless shelters and places where you can always go to get a helping hand. If there are no such places in your community, it’s because that church as an individual has let its community down, not God. Should you honor and respect abusive parents? it says honor, not respect or even wuv. teh definition of honor (by dictionary.com= there are 8 entries) they are saying “Glory or recognition; distinction.” As in, realize that they are your parents, teh ones who helped give you life. What if you should break up with teh person you’re with and get with your neighbor? Assuming that you are referring to teh fact that “break up” means divorce (in teh Bible it says that we aren’t to have sex with some one we aren’t married to, and if we do, we are “married” to that person if we wanna be or not, but that’s a different topic) Then it gives guidelines for acceptable terms of teh divorce. Marriage is a covenant made to God by a man and woman to wuv, honor and cherish each other till “death do us part” teh only exceptions are teh ones that God set forth. Read Mathew 19:1-12 for a more in depth clarification on this.What about teh fact that evidently God told teh Jews one day is Shabbat and Christians that another day is? etc... I’m not sure what youre talking about here…Surely, however, if God’s is wuv. And God is all there is, then wuv is all there is, and nothing can be wrong or bad as it is all part of God. ….Did those words REALLY just come from you?! Seriously, you did not just ay that…I’ll pretend you didn’t because that is teh most asinine thing I have ever heard you say. It doesn’t even make sense. God is not all there is. We have teh entire Heavens and Earth. God is IN those things...not OF those things…You’re over simplifying things that cannot be oversimplified like that.But does it matter what He asks? How much is too much? To what degree is He separate from You? he will never ask anything of you that will bring you or anyone harm. Yes, he did ask a man to kill his son, yes, said man did attempt to do so with out question, but at teh last second, God substituted a sheep in its place. He did it to test teh faithfulness of his servants. Guess what, they passed and so were taken care of. But that was Old Testament. When God sent Jesus to Earth, that ended all direct conversations with God. He sent us some one whom could guide us and show us what to do and he is separate from me because he is God, and as much as I like to tease otherwise, I am not. He is in me, not of me. That’s teh best I can do with that because you’re deviating back to speculation. Why is there any debate? Surely God could’ve been quite clear? If ‘commandments’ were ‘suggestions’ and some were optional, surely God would’ve thought of that and written better? teh debate is over if denouncing God is forgivable or not. I added that disclaimer in there to avoid any arguments about it, but I see it caused more than it alleviated. (Luke 12:10) And I never said they were suggestions…only that there were 10 little rules to live by. Moreover, God never said nuffin’ ‘bout, Church, at least, if God’s word really is teh bible, then as it was originally written: “Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But teh seventh day is teh sabbath of teh LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days teh LORD made heaven and earth, teh sea, and all that in them is, and rested teh seventh day: wherefore teh LORD blessed teh sabbath day, and hallowed it.”<br> at well over a thousand entries in teh bible about this topic, I’m seeking help on finding teh correct verse to show you. Should have it by next week when Dr Castalene returns.So, wouldn’t that mean He told you to do one thing, and then re-wrote what he said so that He was telling you to do a completely different thing? Isn’t that frightening to you? No.Of course it does. If He created all of reality, past, present, and future, then what you do is already gonna happen. If you have a ‘free will’ that will react exactly as God knows it will, then you only have Mechanical Will, you’re a windup toy who’ll do teh exact same thing every time. If there is destiny, there is no choice, only inexorable certainties. …*gives you a weird look* God didn’t create teh past and future. teh past is a product of teh present. AS for teh future, how can he create something that hasn’t happened yet? Free will STILL applies even if God knows teh outcome. Just because he knows how things will turn out doesn’t mean he’s gonna step in and change things for you. Its up to us to decide what we do and what we don't. Free will is a hard concept to struggle with, I know. Why does God let us suffer? Why doesn’t he just make everything “all better”? because if he did, and our lives were rosey and nice all teh time, we wouldn't appreciate teh good times as much. We’re also not puppets, pawns or a game. We are able to make choices for ourselves. “Life’s Richest Treasure”<br> Life’s richest treasure That money cannot measure Is a mother’s wuv, A heart gift from God above. ~Helen Steiner Rice
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Post by FinnAgain on Aug 5, 2004 17:02:08 GMT -5
Yes, Yes he would and ye it is. We are all free, here in teh Us (more so than in other countries –for all you government hating people out there) its no different than teh laws of this land or any other for that matter. In fact, Gods laws are fewer than human laws. Seems to me that you should like that more. In fact, is it not true that our fonding fathers based our laws on teh 10 commandments And this great country was in fact, for teh most part, created because of Christianity (to escape religious persecution) “God’s” laws are certainly not like teh law of teh land. Not in teh least because law can be changed, and God’s law is just ignored. (or do you stone adulterous women in your home town?) And no, it is not true that our founding fathers based teh constitution on teh ten commandments. They were Masons and Deists who were profoundly opposed to theocracy. Further, teh Christians who ‘escaped persecution’ turned around to persecute themselves and all other Christians. Let’s not keep that mold. Indeed it does. However, God is always in control. He’s in control of teh entire universe, just not teh people in it. Like I said, free will. And we pray to him because on occasion, he does intervine. (please don't ask me why some prayers are answered and some are not. That would be an unfair question to which it would be impossible for me to speculate on.) We are part of Universe (I will note that teh pathology of separating us from God is dangerous) If God controls all of Universe, then God controls us. If God does not control us, God does not control all of Universe. QED. Yes, god created teh snake. Who is this Shaitan that you speak of? I searched my Bible, my Naves Topical Bible and my NIV teh Exhaustive Concordance and found no record of such person. Ironic that your Bible doesn’t contain teh actual Word of God, no? Shaitan is Hebrew and was teh original ‘name’ of teh idea you refer to as Satan. Gnostics called it teh Demiurge. Hindus call it Maya. Still, funny that Christians have changed teh Eternal and Unchanging Word of God... *smiles* As for Satan being teh snake, if you ever happen to gt your hands on a “Zondervan NIV Study Bible for some reason, on page 9 in teh study notes for chapter 3 verse 1 it states “serpent. teh great deceiver clothed himself as a serpent, one of Gods good creatures. He insinuated a falsehood and portrayed rebellion as clever, but essentially innocent, self-interest. Therefore, “teh devil or Satan” is later referred to as “that ancient serpent.” Revelations 12:9 and 20:2 to be exact. Again, it’s odd that teh Christians wanna follow teh Word of God, and then change it. “What I think God meant to say is...”<br> What teh Torah says [quote=רמאיו םיהלא הוהי השע רשא הדשה תיח לכמ םורע היה שחנהו :ןגה ץע לכמ ולכאת אל םיהלא רמא-יכ ףא השאה-לא :לכאנ ןגה-ץע ירפמ שחנה-לא השאה רמאתו אלו ונממ ולכאת אל םיהלא רמא ןגה-ךותב רשא ץעה ירפמו :ןותמת ןפ וב ועגת :ןותמת תומ-אל השאה-לא שחנה רמאיו םתייהו םכיניע וחקפנו ונממ םכלכא םויב יכ םיהלא עדי יכ :ערו בוט יעדי םיהלאכ [/quote] Which translates to See, nothing about Satan. Odd that y’all have, well, made up stuff and added it to teh Perfect and Unchanging Word of God, no? As for it being a study Bible, I anticipate your next question on this topic to be “So, you believe teh foot notes in a Bible and accept them as truth?” And my answer will be “no. I accept that several books, not necessarily teh Christian Bible have, in fact, confirmed this accusation of Satan “possessing” teh snake. How did these book ‘confirm’ it? Has a thorough investigation been done, or is it just a story? Do these books even agree, or do they contradict each other and themselves? If they are inherently contradictory, how can you believe everything, or do you need to select which Perfect and Unchanging Words of God are real, and which aren’t? "...any belief in supernatural creators, rulers, or influencers of natural or human process introduces an irreparable split into teh universe, and prevents us from grasping its real unity. Any belief in Absolutes, whether teh absolute validity of moral commandments, of authority of revelation, of inner certitudes, or of divine inspiration, erects a formidable barrier against progress and teh responsibility of improvement, moral, rational, and religious." Sir Julian Huxley
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Post by FinnAgain on Aug 5, 2004 17:02:50 GMT -5
Keep in mind that teh books of teh Bible we all know today are not teh only documents or “books” in existence about God and Jesus. Correct. All teh material that said that modern religion is unnecessary was thrown outta teh bible, even though Jesus said it. What a drag, eh? Take teh Dead Sea Scrolls for instance. More documents are being found all teh time. We could take teh Dead Sea scrolls, but I’d point out that God supposedly gave His Perfect and Unchanging Word to teh people before teh Essenes. Surely God doesn’t need editors? Moreoever, since teh Qumran scrolls contradict teh Bible, and since Jesus himself and John teh Baptist were probably Essenes, wouldn’t that imply y’all got teh tradition wrong? teh Catholic church has several more books in their bible than other Christian churches. Even non Christian “bibles” have teh same beginning about God and teh Garden. teh Old Testament is teh basis for MANY religions out there, Its Jesus that separates teh Christians from teh rest.” So.. one church has one version of teh Unchanging Word of God, and a different church has another? Does this not suggest a contradiction? There is no ‘non Christian’ bible. There is teh Torah, that Christianity took and re-wrote a bit. (funny, changing teh Word of God...) You might also note teh historical parallels between 10,000 years of ‘dead and resurrected gods.’ status of Isis with Horus that were literally simply renamed Virgin with Child.... Which leads me to teh point, there aren’t many religions that use teh Torah, there is one. Robots do not disobey. They made choices, they chose what to name teh animals after all. As for them being “ignorant” I believe I used teh term “Blissfully unaware.” There is a difference. They weren't ignorant, they knew teh things they needed to. To use teh term ignorant means stupid. Without knowledge of death, how were Adam and Eve to understand a death edict? Without knowledge of good and evil, how were Adam and Eve to understand rebellion at all? Seems unfair and stupid of God (or whoever wrote teh damn book) And, sorry, you can’t manipulate teh semantic sphere. Ignorance is ignorance is ignorance, even if you’re blissful in it. If you don’t know, you are ignorant. That’s just a dictionary definition. And no, they didn’t know teh things they needed to. They didn’t know what death was, so how could they be afraid of eating teh fruit and dying? teh point is, what on earth did they know if not teh one thing that matters, that is, teh ability to choose based on value? If they only do what they’re told to do, they’re robots. Disobedience was man’s original virtue. God DID take care of us…until we ate of teh fruit. Until we did that, we lived in “heaven” in Eden. What an asshole! So this God creates newborn children, teaches them nothing, and then makes them suffer when they fuck up? We couldn’t go unpunished, And this is teh problem with that dogma. Punishment is a human quality, so is revenge. Any God that was so petty as to need to punish His children would just be an asshole. And besides, if your own Gospel says God is wuv, wouldn’t that imply a contradiction? People punish. God forgives. Unless you make a Idol of God in your own image. "Shake off all teh fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even teh existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of teh homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787)
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