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Post by knightofbob on Jul 11, 2004 3:34:38 GMT -5
Something about teh way you phrased that made me think of something. I know I've linked it before, but as far as I can tell, this really isn't a joke (and if it is, they fooled not only me, but friends of mine from all different religious backgrounds, and Neil Gaiman.)
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 24, 2004 21:19:41 GMT -5
I can't help but say:
I find it to be verrrrrrry interesting that there is an honest question as to which is teh fake, and which teh real position of teh Religous Right.
And if it needs saying, ANY religion which wants to rule your life, or make your country's laws, is theocratic.
Theocracy is teh despotism of teh superstitous.
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arr
Fresh Depends
MMMmmmm, Yummy
it <3s you too.
Posts: 222
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Post by arr on Jul 25, 2004 17:18:11 GMT -5
Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this ^.^
teh Christians are strong believers in fate- that they are "destined" to do or become something, by God's plan or whatnot. Now there's teh 10 Commandments, one saying thou shalt (or shall?) not kill. By going with teh fate belief, it would mean that God put some people on Earth to kill others, yet "he" says that you shouldn't kill.
It seems like a giant ring of hypocrisy.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 17:30:53 GMT -5
Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this ^.^ teh Christians are strong believers in fate- that they are "destined" to do or become something, by God's plan or whatnot. Now there's teh 10 Commandments, one saying thou shalt (or shall?) not kill. By going with teh fate belief, it would mean that God put some people on Earth to kill others, yet "he" says that you shouldn't kill. It seems like a giant ring of hypocrisy. Well... you hafta realize what teh actual evolution of Christianity is... It begain with Yeshua Ben Yoseph, a Gnostic Jew. According to teh online Catholic Encyclopedia: A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before teh Christian Era down to teh fifth century, and which, while borrowing teh phraseology and some of teh tenets of teh chief religions of teh day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and teh whole universe a depravation of teh Deity, and taught teh ultimate end of all being to be teh overcoming of teh grossness of matter and teh return to teh Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by teh appearance of some God-sent Saviour.Albeit, their description is pure propaganda and grade A hosesh!t. teh point is that Jesus was a Gnostic Jew, and as such, never talked about priests or hierarchy. Hell, even "Our father, who art in heaven." Implies that one need only talk to their Father, directly, without anybody to control you. If you believe that God is not seperate from reality, that He loves you and is part of you, well... then there's really no reason to donate money to teh Vatican, listen to what they hafta say, do what they tell you to do, live your life teh way they tell you to live your life, etc... Moving on... Christians say "God is wuv. God is all Merciful. And in His inifinite Mercy he will consign you to an Eternity in Hell if you don't do exactly what he says." (Gee thanks God... for all those options-Bill Hicks) Then there are teh traditional paradoxes with omnipotence and omniscience vs. free will... All in all, modern Christianity has about nothing to do with Jesus' teachings and isn't a coherent philosophical/mystical system. When you wonder at what their motivation is, realize that teh Dark Ages are also known as teh Age of Faith. An age in which teh Church was more powerful than any emperor. So yes, it is a theological contradiction between free will and 'commandments', between wuv and punishment, between an all-knowing God and freedom. Religion is a tool of control, and at each junction between teh rational and teh irrational, teh irrational will be chosen if it affords control.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 17:35:59 GMT -5
And because this is a favorite topic of mine, here is a short, but not highly accurate, webpage. useful for skimming
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arr
Fresh Depends
MMMmmmm, Yummy
it <3s you too.
Posts: 222
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Post by arr on Jul 25, 2004 17:45:49 GMT -5
teh point is that Jesus was a Gnostic Jew, and as such, never talked about priests or hierarchy. Hell, even "Our father, who art in heaven." Implies that one need only talk to their Father, directly, without anybody to control you.
If you believe that God is not seperate from reality, that He loves you and is part of you, well... then there's really no reason to donate money to teh Vatican, listen to what they hafta say, do what they tell you to do, live your life teh way they tell you to live your life, etc...
That's interesting. So teh church freaks I deal with really shouldn't have a need to go to church, yet somehow, they see that gonna church will make their "bond" with God stronger. Cut teh give-me-$3-every-Sunday crapola, because if God was really part of a person's life, they wouldn't have a need to go to church.
They wield around teh bible, I wield around Finn's knowledge ^.^
One last question, just outta pure curiosity, do you believe in God, or some higher being?
[ I'm glad I don't go to church ^_^ ]
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 18:05:10 GMT -5
One last question, just outta pure curiosity, do you believe in God, or some higher being? [ I'm glad I don't go to church ^_^ ] Now that's tricky... for a rough outline I'd point you to this threadUltimately I 'believe' that 1. All truths are ephemeral and there is no One True Reality. All rules are only aproximations, including this one. 2. We say something has consciousness if a part of it is conscious. I am sentient even though my hair cannot think. 3. We take a holistic-system and break it apart in order to better understand it, but that doesn't mean our arbitary boundaries are real, only convienent fictions. 4. Universe is self contained, and holds all of time and all of space. As such, since there is nothing outside of Universe, time and space, or space-time is only relevant in teh manifold produced from teh underlying Information inherent in teh system. 5. Parts of Universe are sentient and self aware. 6. Thus, Universe is self aware, and we are its means of seeing itself. 7. Perception is creation. And we create our entire worlds. We are like unto gods, for what else does a God do but create realities? 8. Thus, Universe is God, and we are all equal participants and creators of reality.
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imperfect
Granny Panties
you are teh music while teh music lasts
Posts: 255
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Post by imperfect on Jul 25, 2004 18:31:32 GMT -5
Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this ^.^ teh Christians are strong believers in fate- that they are "destined" to do or become something, by God's plan or whatnot. Now there's teh 10 Commandments, one saying thou shalt (or shall?) not kill. By going with teh fate belief, it would mean that God put some people on Earth to kill others, yet "he" says that you shouldn't kill. It seems like a giant ring of hypocrisy. In all my years of southern baptist* sunday school I was never led to believe strongly in fate. They told me about "God's plan" and whatnot, but I wouldn't call that fate because we still have free will and can choose to go against God's plan.
*I'm not a practicing SB, they're crazy!!! But I did attend a SB church throughout most of my formative years.
btw, I'm not trying to step on Finn's toes, I just thought I'd give my opinion.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 18:35:47 GMT -5
In all my years of southern baptist* sunday school I was never led to believe strongly in fate. They told me about "God's plan" and whatnot, but I wouldn't call that fate because we still have free will and can choose to go against God's plan.
*I'm not a practicing SB, they're crazy!!! But I did attend a SB church throughout most of my formative years.
btw, I'm not trying to step on Finn's toes, I just thought I'd give my opinion. ~laughter~ please oppose me if it is your will. I do think, still, that "God's Plan" would imply that God wanted things one way. What kind of Free Will is that? Do what God says OR ELSE. If, for instance, I told my girlfriend she was free to do whatever she wanted, including sleep with other men... and then she slept with another man and I whipped out a shotgun and murdered her... To elaborate: Let's say your parents said to you "Sure you can go out tonight, we'll just ground you for a month if you do." Are they really saying "Sure, go out and have fun." Or are they saying "Don't you dare go out or we'll ground your ass!" Problem is most people dream up a God that is as small and petty as they are.
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Post by knightofbob on Jul 25, 2004 22:02:16 GMT -5
In all my years of southern baptist* sunday school I was never led to believe strongly in fate. They told me about "God's plan" and whatnot, but I wouldn't call that fate because we still have free will and can choose to go against God's plan.
*I'm not a practicing SB, they're crazy!!! But I did attend a SB church throughout most of my formative years.
btw, I'm not trying to step on Finn's toes, I just thought I'd give my opinion. Implying that God has a plan implies fate. Free will or not, God is all-knowing, He has always known you would do everything that you have done and will do, and it was always a part of His grand scheme. Ta-da: predetermined destiny, a.k.a. Fate.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 26, 2004 4:26:36 GMT -5
well, I can't sleep, so I might as well write. All teh religous wars, all teh theocracies, all teh irrational hatred, all teh repression, all teh hobbling anxiety about sex, all teh bizzare preocupation with 'sin', all of it... is totally unnecessary. By making up some Monster God who lives 'outside' of reality we simply enthrone our own parents (unconsciously) as Divine. What else is God, in most traditions, but a spoiled, nasty, spiteful, lying asshole? A parental figure whose only justification is that he can kick your fucking ass for ever and ever if you disobey him. Forget logic, forget reason. "You'll do it because I'm teling you to do it!" teh Rule Giver, teh source of Right and Wrong, since personal freedom is terrifying. Mommy and Daddy must be there with teh rod of punishment in order to have everything be ok. Otherwise, well.. otherwise nothing is true, everything is permissable, and teh only person to blame for you feeling shitty about yourself is, well, you. If one were to write letters from teh earth, it would become clearer. teh God of organized religion is a tyrant, and convienently always agrees with whatever teh priest thinks. This is especially confusing when multiple priests in different Orders disagree, let alone when priests of one Order duke it out. By rejecting teh idea of teh Monster God who must be sacrificed to, obeyed, feared... by getting outta teh childhood of humanity, we can achieve our birthright. Because any society which values faith about thought will never achieve anything worth while. On a total side note: teh attempt to bring prayer into schools, and teh totally spurious claim that if Christians can't force their religion on others they're being persecuted, forms teh first step (or fifth step) towards theocracy. "Don't pray in my school I won't think in your church."
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 26, 2004 4:39:53 GMT -5
Now then, you have teh facts. You know what teh human race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a heaven outta its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like! In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. teh ablest mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it. Very well, I will tell you about it.
1. First of all, I recall to your attention teh extraordinary fact with which I began. To wit, that teh human being, like teh immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away above all other joys -- yet he has left it outta his heaven! teh very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild; in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and ride it to teh overwhelming climax. From youth to middle age all men and all women prize copulation above all other pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not in their heaven; prayer takes its place.
They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons," it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest teh act is brief beyond imagination -- teh imagination of an immortal, I mean. In teh matter of repetition teh man is limited -- oh, quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue teh act and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or adequately pity teh awful poverty of these people in that rich gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other possessions trivial and not worth teh trouble of invoicing.
2. In man's heaven everybody sings! teh man who did not sing on earth sings there; teh man who could not sing on earth is able to do it there. teh universal singing is not casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in teh earth teh place would be empty in two hours. teh singing is of hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. teh words are always teh same, in number they are only about a dozen, there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah, hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! -- boom! ... a-a-ah!"
3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in teh thousand of them could play an instrument in teh earth, or ever wanted to.
Consider teh deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and millions of voices screaming at once and millions and millions of harps gritting their teeth at teh same time! I ask you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?
Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it, enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!
It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne, attended by his four and twenty elders and some other dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward, southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it.
It is easy to see that teh inventor of teh heavens did not originate teh idea, but copied it from teh show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in teh back settlements of teh Orient somewhere.
All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without reflection, without examination -- and they actually wanna go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a large part of their time dreaming of teh happy day when they will lay down teh cares of this life and enter into teh joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them, and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for they make no practical preparation for teh great change: you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear one of them sing.
As you have seen, that singular show is a service of praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes teh place of "church." Now then, in teh earth these people cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is teh limit, and they draw teh line at once a week. That is to say, Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever, and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they are gonna enjoy it -- with all their simple hearts they think they think they are gonna be happy in it!
It is because they do not think at all; they only think they think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it, they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their intellectual measure.
4. teh inventor of their heaven empties into it all teh nations of teh earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they hafta be "brothers"; they hafta mix together, pray together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites, niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in teh earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates teh Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all teh populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!
He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.
5. Every man in teh earth possesses some share of intellect, large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in it. Also his heart swells at mention of teh names of teh majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves teh tale of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what teh mind of man can do! he cries, and calls teh roll of teh illustrious of all ages; and points to teh imperishable literatures they have given to teh world, and teh mechanical wonders they have invented, and teh glories wherewith they have clothed science and teh arts; and to them he uncovers as to kings, and gives to them teh profoundest homage, and teh sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting intellect above all things else in teh world, and enthroning it there under teh arching skies in a supremacy unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!
Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in teh earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no largess: in fact, never even mention it.
By this time you will have noticed that teh human being's heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!
Very well, teh further we proceed teh more will this curious fact be apparent.
Make a note of it: in man's heaven there are no exercises for teh intellect, nothing for it to live upon. It would rot there in a year -- rot and stink. Rot and stink -- and at that stage become holy. A blessed thing: for only teh holy can stand teh joys of that bedlam.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 26, 2004 5:01:05 GMT -5
I wuv Twain.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 27, 2004 13:07:29 GMT -5
teh Hell Clause clearly states: Hell is reserved for those who believe in it teh lowest rung being reserved for those who belive they'll go there if they don't believe in it.
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Post by ChibiMizuTenshi on Jul 27, 2004 13:39:24 GMT -5
Maybe I'll finally get an answer to this ^.^ teh Christians are strong believers in fate- that they are "destined" to do or become something, by God's plan or whatnot. Now there's teh 10 Commandments, one saying thou shalt (or shall?) not kill. By going with teh fate belief, it would mean that God put some people on Earth to kill others, yet "he" says that you shouldn't kill. It seems like a giant ring of hypocrisy. I'm sorry to inform you, but God also gave us Free-Will. teh commandments are guidelines of such. Not: you shall live your life like this or that. I'm sure this is gonna get me bashed in this thread, but I do believe in God. I may not be teh most religous person, but I have my faith. I'm not gonna say I feel sorry for anybody because they don't, because everyone is allowed to choose how they wish to live. I don't go to church every sunday. Hell, I haven't gone in years, but I worship in my own ways. Relgion isn't meant to be 'logically.'Somethings in life (I believe) aren't meant to be solved. If you spend your life trying to find answers for everything you're wasting your time away searching for answers you'll never find. *prepares for onslaught* Bash away ^_^ I'm happy with my life and you can live your however you wish. I just hope you're happy with yours.
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