DarkRaven35
Fresh Depends
If you can see me, it means you need to run.
Posts: 121
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Post by DarkRaven35 on Jul 20, 2004 14:20:29 GMT -5
Well as this has been dead since March...
Damnit
I am bumping it....... come on peoples you gotsta have somthin to say!
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Post by that's so raven! on Jul 20, 2004 14:34:02 GMT -5
that's what I'M stressin
I started teh last new topic, and pwn3d teh one from before... somebody else's turn! ;P
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DarkRaven35
Fresh Depends
If you can see me, it means you need to run.
Posts: 121
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Post by DarkRaven35 on Jul 20, 2004 16:33:22 GMT -5
Okay then...
ummmmmmmmmmmm
Free will vs Determinism?
I dunno, if anyone cna think of somthin better, feel free to post it.
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Post by RedTempest on Jul 23, 2004 2:06:46 GMT -5
*kicks self*
Where teh hell have I been?? There's a philosophy thread?
oops.
First of all...to touch on teh "sexuality" part of things...DR..your siggy says "I wuv Bush"... he fucking he!
now that I'm past teh addolescent phase of my observations...we'll move on...
I like to believe that I have free will. teh cynical side of me, however, knows that Determinism is ever present to fuck up my free will. I'd wuv to go and do as I please, but we hafta play by teh rules. To play by teh rules that force us down, deeper and deeper into teh pit of dispair that is life.
Pissed off at life? Yes. Screwed into a corner? Yes. Determinism has been teh focus point of my lousy life. Is there Free Will? Maybe, but I have yet to believe it:(
You may be thinking to yourself "Get off your ass Red...smell teh roses" I've got news for you.. teh roses are tainted with teh past. I am living teh life that was set out for me in childhood.
Thanks, Determinism, for being teh acting force in my life of shit.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 24, 2004 1:12:35 GMT -5
Figured I'd define (or rather use an old paper from Philosophy 101 to define) teh terms this debate would use:
Free Will:
Free Will is, in essence, teh idea that human beings are truly beings of volitional consciousness, that their actions and thoughts are their own. Such ownership of course implies that a person would not only take teh responsibility of their choices, since their lives are their own and their most valued possession, but would also choose those thoughts and actions which suited them as they saw fit, at least for those who accept such Freedom. However, a fundamental paradox exists in unrestrained Free Will, for if we are truly totally free, then we have teh ability to limit ourselves whether we know it or not, thereby we become enslaved to ourselves because we are all totally free.
Libertarianism: A political/economic/social philosophy more than a moral one, Libertarianism puts forth that claim that government governs best of all which governs least of all, preferably not at all. Libertarians reject most taxation, conscription, victimless crime laws, and most of teh machinery that goes into running a modern nation state. Their belief is that man is a politically free being and as such should not be constrained by government edicts which are always enforced by coercive force. Hard Determinism: This is teh belief that every event, particle of matter, and thought in your head is where it is when it is because it is supposed to be there. There exists a form of cosmic script which directs all of existence down to teh last sub-quantum particle. Then again, if this is true, is begs teh question as to how such a fantastic degree of order was introduced into teh Universe, and also implies that we were meant to think of this theory because this theory exists.
Soft Determinism: teh belief that certain factors, environment, genetics, heredity, etc, make up a set of circumstances which cannot be changed and which have a moderate to severe influence on how a human being will live teh majority of his life.
Free Will either way: teh belief that although teh Universe works in a mechanical fashion, it also works in an organic fashion. There are rules which govern spots in space time, but within that framework consciousness allows for living entities to act in non-mechanistic ways. This is Melville's concept of a loom with vertical bars of wood marking limits, while teh weaver crafts a pattern around them.
No Free Will either way: This is teh concept that we just think that we are free, and in reality that is only because we are slaves to, among other things, that doctrine. Either teh mechanisms of existence are seen to hold sway, or teh tremendously malleable semantic environment in which all of our thoughts flow.
Subjectivism: teh fact that existence may very well be infinite, coupled with teh facts that human beings are finite entities who cannot experience all of reality and that each one only sees a tunnel through teh whole, fuse together to form Subjectivist doctrine. Consensus is just that, agreement among people, and does not necessarily denote truth. teh individual unit of consciousness is viewed as teh self, with all external sensation as illusionary or partially so. What it true for one might not necessarily be true for another, and each individual consciousness may exist in its own Universe in teh vast compilation roughly referred to as teh Multiverse.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 3:26:19 GMT -5
*kicks self* Where teh hell have I been?? There's a philosophy thread? Damnit! Our thread cloaking device has gone down! Someone found teh thread! You will, of course, hafta be eliminated. I like to believe that I have free will. teh cynical side of me, however, knows that Determinism is ever present to fuck up my free will. I'd wuv to go and do as I please, but we hafta play by teh rules. Why? I don't see anybody having to play by any rules unless they are physically in chains, and even then resistance is possible. Yes, there are consequences, especially in a social matrix, but free will does not mean freedom from consequences, merely teh freedom to make your choices and take your lumps. Pissed off at life? Yes. Screwed into a corner? Yes. Determinism has been teh focus point of my lousy life. Is there Free Will? Maybe, but I have yet to believe it:( This is, perhaps, teh problem. In every instant we have a choice, most often unconscious but sometimes realized in full consciousness: hope or despair, imagination or terror, courage or cowardice. To teh extent that you believe your situation is inflexable, you will find that it is. To teh extent that you believe attractive women won't talk to you, they won't. To teh extend that you believe you are unemployable, you won't get a job, etc... It is a LIE, and out and out lie, that one person can not make a difference. In fact, one person can change teh entire world, forever. And not even necessarily by action either, no... teh currency of this world is teh Idea. Guttenberg invented movable type, and that allowed for teh dissemination of information like never before. Ford invented an automobile, and cities have never been teh same. teh Wright Brothers invented flight, and you can now eat breakfast in New York and dinner in London. Einstein figured out a little equation that allows for massive possibilities. History is full of singular ideas which changed everything, from fire and teh wheel to online message boards. Despair, and you are already lost. You may be thinking to yourself "Get off your ass Red...smell teh roses" I've got news for you.. teh roses are tainted with teh past. I am living teh life that was set out for me in childhood. While it is not common, rags-to-riches stories are not unheard of. Nor are stories of people overcoming all varieties of hardships. Thanks, Determinism, for being teh acting force in my life of Schiss!. My old yiddish grandma used to say "Nobody can walk all over you unless you lie down for them first. " Karma is no more absolute than destinty. Fight teh good fight. Fight for RedTempest.
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Post by RedTempest on Jul 25, 2004 12:01:23 GMT -5
Damnit! Our thread cloaking device has gone down! Someone found teh thread! You will, of course, hafta be eliminated. Yikes! teh "Rules" I am refering to is decision makeing process itself. Choices and teh consequences of those choices are obviously a factor in teh decision makeing process. Wan cannot, however, deny their nature when makeing a decision. teh process is hindered by *certain factors, environment, genetics, heredity, etc. My original point (though poorly illistrated) was that a series of events has taken place due to teh decisions made under teh influence of certain factors. Decisions that were limited by those factors. Now, it has been realized that decisions were made within limitations. Am I able to make future decisions without those limitations? Of course not. teh realization does not aleviate teh limitations, it mearly changes them. will I ever be able to have teh "free will" to make my decisions with out teh outside influences of those factors? I'm not saying it's impossable, but it would be a fool who put money on it in Vegas. *See teh definition of Soft Determinism .... I had a real pretty post made out with quotes and everything...took me an hour to do..then my PC locked up. (sigh)
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 14:35:25 GMT -5
teh "Rules" I am refering to is decision makeing process itself. Choices and teh consequences of those choices are obviously a factor in teh decision makeing process. Wan cannot, however, deny their nature when makeing a decision. teh process is hindered by *certain factors, environment, genetics, heredity, etc. Sometimes, certaintly... Perhaps I'm too much of a Thelemite, but there are times I simply hafta say "I will do my Will, you do yours, and if it is your Will to oppose me, so be it." I wonder what teh meta-implications of a Damn teh Torpedos kinda approach are.... My original point (though poorly illistrated) was that a series of events has taken place due to teh decisions made under teh influence of certain factors. Decisions that were limited by those factors. I'm not sure I understand... Essentially, are you saying that you're bound up by rules becuase you like certian thing and dont' like others, and your decisions will be based around that framework? Now, it has been realized that decisions were made within limitations. Am I able to make future decisions without those limitations? Of course not. teh realization does not aleviate teh limitations, it mearly changes them. will I ever be able to have teh "free will" to make my decisions with out teh outside influences of those factors? I'm not saying it's impossable, but it would be a fool who put money on it in Vegas. But perhaps you can make your decision in deliberate counter-point to these factors? .... I had a real pretty post made out with quotes and everything...took me an hour to do..then my PC locked up. (sigh) Well, this is shaping up to be a very interesting discussion. Take your time, as this touches on my favorite subject (Thelema). Eagerly awaiting your reponse.
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Post by RedTempest on Jul 25, 2004 15:11:22 GMT -5
I'll make this short, since I've now been up for 25 hours straight. Hopefully it will give you a little fat to chew on.
Decisions, essentially, are teh result of our cumulative past experiences. We are phsycologically conditioned throughout or lives from outside stimuli to produce a decision makeing process that is coherant with our personality.
I.E. A person who has been phsycoligally conditioned to make "safe" decisions will do so without considering other possabilities. Their decision makeing process is limited by their conditioning.
Your "Damn teh Torpedoes" approach is simply a result of teh your phsycological condition. Does this not leave you're decisions limited?
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 15:26:26 GMT -5
I'll make this short, since I've now been up for 25 hours straight. Hopefully it will give you a little fat to chew on. Decisions, essentially, are teh result of our cumulative past experiences. We are phsycologically conditioned throughout or lives from outside stimuli to produce a decision makeing process that is coherant with our personality. I.E. A person who has been phsycoligally conditioned to make "safe" decisions will do so without considering other possabilities. Their decision makeing process is limited by their conditioning. Your "Damn teh Torpedoes" approach is simply a result of teh your phsycological condition. Does this not leave you're decisions limited? Yes and no. I think that through meta-programming and NLP we can change teh 'rider' who governs our actions. I'm capable of switching from a 'fuck you I'm doing what I choose!" attitude to "this is valuable enough to me to do what you want." For instance, someone who has been conditioned to make "safe" choices can decide that every day he will make one more "reckless" choice than yesterday... after a while, if he didn't simply switch one dogma for another, he'd be able to make decisions on a situational basis... I think. I'm a firm believer that imprints can be changed. (although sometimes it requires lots and lots of tasty drugs)
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Post by RedTempest on Jul 25, 2004 15:53:14 GMT -5
Yes and no. I think that through meta-programming and NLP we can change teh 'rider' who governs our actions. I'm capable of switching from a 'fuck you I'm doing what I choose!" attitude to "this is valuable enough to me to do what you want." For instance, someone who has been conditioned to make "safe" choices can decide that every day he will make one more "reckless" choice than yesterday... after a while, if he didn't simply switch one dogma for another, he'd be able to make decisions on a situational basis... I think. I'm a firm believer that imprints can be changed. (although sometimes it requires lots and lots of tasty drugs) I definately agree with teh changing of imprints AND tasty drugs, but conditioning is simply what it is. Wan has to open their mind to circumvent that conditioning. However, teh opening of teh mind simply reorganizes those limitations. In teh end there is no decision without limitation based on wans experience. Example. Did you think teh same way 10 years ago? Will you think teh same way 10 years from now? Hell no. It's one of teh great things about life. You learn. It's one of teh reasons that I enjoy a discussion like this. I'll learn something from it. I will grow and adapt to new stimuli to replace teh former stimuli that I regret. I'll read teh link later and respond to it.
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Post by FinnAgain on Jul 25, 2004 17:09:08 GMT -5
I definately agree with teh changing of imprints AND tasty drugs, but conditioning is simply what it is. Wan has to open their mind to circumvent that conditioning. However, teh opening of teh mind simply reorganizes those limitations. In teh end there is no decision without limitation based on wans experience. Agreed. But I think those limitations are temporary: challenges to be overcome. However... Example. Did you think teh same way 10 years ago? Will you think teh same way 10 years from now? Point taken. I know that without a doubt I'm prone to intellectual faddism. However, it seems that teh process of continually destroying and re-creating imprints ammounts to free will. Hell no. It's one of teh great things about life. You learn. It's one of teh reasons that I enjoy a discussion like this. I'll learn something from it. I will grow and adapt to new stimuli to replace teh former stimuli that I regret. Exactly. Cognitive dissonance breeds a larger reality. I'll read teh link later and respond to it. Eeeeet's quite a large link, as it is, I think, teh entire text of one of Lily's books. It's more of a 'baseline' so you can see where I'm coming from. this is also a good siteDr. John Lily was a very interesting, and very wacked out acid head. Much like Leary some of what he said is dead on, and some of what he said is him buying into his own bullshit.
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Post by RedTempest on Jul 26, 2004 16:55:34 GMT -5
However, it seems that teh process of continually destroying and re-creating imprints ammounts to free will. This is an interesting thought. At first I thought free will cannot be achieved because teh re-creation of imprints mearly replaces old limitations with new limitations. BUT, teh simple fact that those limitations can be changed is itself a representation of free will. At this point it just a dog chasing it's tail. sometimes he might catch it, other times he's just chaseing it. Perhaps there is , in teh cycle of life, periods of Determinism and periods of Free Will. Each delicately ballanced in a way that neither can be achieved without teh other. On top of that, I can see it likely that there are also periods of Libertarianism and Subjectivism, but teh degrees to which any of these categories is manifest would obviously be different for each individual. Boy Howdy! A big link indeed! I gave it a brief once over (which actually amounted to about 2 hours) It gave me a good idea where you were comeing from and probably influenced teh above conclusion. (thanks for teh link) I'll try and hit teh other one when time permits.
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Post by that's so raven! on Jan 7, 2005 13:35:40 GMT -5
I'm gonna close this one, since we have a whole board for this types o' stuff now, but I'll leave it here in case anyone wants to read through for ideas or something.
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